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	<title>Comments on: Bloggers (and others) getting the legal recognition they deserve over #bushfires</title>
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	<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/</link>
	<description>What works?  Case studies from the edge of innovation.</description>
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		<title>By: ben rogers</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>ben rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately - I don&#039;t think Laurels argument that saying something on Facebook is the same as saying something in the Pub is quite right..  sure its they could be both considered conversations.. however on Facebook its a permanent record unless of course you delete it.  She was right on the money about whether its Facebooks problem or not... its not - its the users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately &#8211; I don&#8217;t think Laurels argument that saying something on Facebook is the same as saying something in the Pub is quite right..  sure its they could be both considered conversations.. however on Facebook its a permanent record unless of course you delete it.  She was right on the money about whether its Facebooks problem or not&#8230; its not &#8211; its the users.</p>
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		<title>By: Leanne Fry</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Leanne Fry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Galbally wasn&#039;t on Sunrise because someone made an informed decision that he&#039;s an expert. Too often you become an expert simply by clever marketing and saying it often enough so everyone believes you. 
Galbally is good TV fodder because he can talk, he knows how to ram a point home (whether it&#039;s the right one or not), and he provided the conflict that makes ratings (irresponsible web users). He was in control of the interview. Unfortunately the lack of a strong response to him from all parties just makes him look right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Galbally wasn&#8217;t on Sunrise because someone made an informed decision that he&#8217;s an expert. Too often you become an expert simply by clever marketing and saying it often enough so everyone believes you.<br />
Galbally is good TV fodder because he can talk, he knows how to ram a point home (whether it&#8217;s the right one or not), and he provided the conflict that makes ratings (irresponsible web users). He was in control of the interview. Unfortunately the lack of a strong response to him from all parties just makes him look right.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Lewis</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-42</guid>
		<description>What fun this is all turning out to be. I&#039;ve been blogging about it myself and following Laurel&#039;s blog but this thread is where the goodtimes are. Like the best one-hour TV drama is had two plots: a serious question (Facebook lynch mobs) with a humorous sub-plot (is Melissa Doyle a journalist).

As a sometime journalist with a law degree, I&#039;m not awed by either fancy qualification. I think Jack&#039;s post clearly spells out Galbally&#039;s qualification: he&#039;s a criminal QC who also hires himself out as a TV entertainer. Brain surgeons also have impressive qualifications but would we wheel one out on national TV because he put his hand up in class to suggest cutting Facebook off in Victoria?

Being a QC, Galbally must have called his fair share of experts to testify and he must of course be careful to ask the right questions. And this debate is all about asking the right question. Here&#039;s mine, QC Lover: if a QC had a trial involving Facebook or the internet, would he call Galbally as an expert witness?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What fun this is all turning out to be. I&#8217;ve been blogging about it myself and following Laurel&#8217;s blog but this thread is where the goodtimes are. Like the best one-hour TV drama is had two plots: a serious question (Facebook lynch mobs) with a humorous sub-plot (is Melissa Doyle a journalist).</p>
<p>As a sometime journalist with a law degree, I&#8217;m not awed by either fancy qualification. I think Jack&#8217;s post clearly spells out Galbally&#8217;s qualification: he&#8217;s a criminal QC who also hires himself out as a TV entertainer. Brain surgeons also have impressive qualifications but would we wheel one out on national TV because he put his hand up in class to suggest cutting Facebook off in Victoria?</p>
<p>Being a QC, Galbally must have called his fair share of experts to testify and he must of course be careful to ask the right questions. And this debate is all about asking the right question. Here&#8217;s mine, QC Lover: if a QC had a trial involving Facebook or the internet, would he call Galbally as an expert witness?</p>
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		<title>By: QC Lover</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>QC Lover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Jack...Jack...Jack...you wrote a reasonably good post but then you diminish it with your unnecessary and typically lightweight bitchin&#039; about other people&#039;s fancy qualifications. Sounds to me like you&#039;ve got that big furry chimp on your back matey. 

Get this if you can, OK? He&#039;s a QC and she&#039;s a journo. That&#039;s it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack&#8230;Jack&#8230;Jack&#8230;you wrote a reasonably good post but then you diminish it with your unnecessary and typically lightweight bitchin&#8217; about other people&#8217;s fancy qualifications. Sounds to me like you&#8217;ve got that big furry chimp on your back matey. </p>
<p>Get this if you can, OK? He&#8217;s a QC and she&#8217;s a journo. That&#8217;s it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Herrington</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Herrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 08:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Addendum: I should have added that I have the benefit of knowing that John above is John Dunlop of &lt;a href=&quot;http://melissadoyle.com.au/Mel_Doyle_Website/Welcome.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Melissa Doyle Management&lt;/a&gt;, which I know because he emailed the Silicon Federation directly to ask that we read his comment and respond. Done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Addendum: I should have added that I have the benefit of knowing that John above is John Dunlop of <a href="http://melissadoyle.com.au/Mel_Doyle_Website/Welcome.html" rel="nofollow">Melissa Doyle Management</a>, which I know because he emailed the Silicon Federation directly to ask that we read his comment and respond. Done.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Lewis</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 07:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Leanne, many of my own thoughts are in the trackback above your comment. 

I would add that I agree with Kimota, who is posting on &lt;a href=&quot;http://laurelpapworth.com/australia-david-galbally-vs-social-media/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Laurel Papworth&#039;s blog&lt;/a&gt; to the effect that the fact that its hard shouldn&#039;t mean we won&#039;t try to enforce the law. That the mob now has more powerful means of communicating and organising, doesn&#039;t make it all right. But, as you say, Galbally does himself no favours by suggesting Facebook can stop this any more than Telstra Stadium&#039;s management can control what conversations happen in there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leanne, many of my own thoughts are in the trackback above your comment. </p>
<p>I would add that I agree with Kimota, who is posting on <a href="http://laurelpapworth.com/australia-david-galbally-vs-social-media/" rel="nofollow">Laurel Papworth&#8217;s blog</a> to the effect that the fact that its hard shouldn&#8217;t mean we won&#8217;t try to enforce the law. That the mob now has more powerful means of communicating and organising, doesn&#8217;t make it all right. But, as you say, Galbally does himself no favours by suggesting Facebook can stop this any more than Telstra Stadium&#8217;s management can control what conversations happen in there.</p>
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		<title>By: All the fun of “citizen journalism” with none of the ethics and responsibility &#171; Inside the Box</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>All the fun of “citizen journalism” with none of the ethics and responsibility &#171; Inside the Box</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 07:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-38</guid>
		<description>[...] Silicon Federation blog has already taken Sunrise to task for asking the wrong questions. Asking the right questions would [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Silicon Federation blog has already taken Sunrise to task for asking the wrong questions. Asking the right questions would [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leanne Fry</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Leanne Fry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Couple of points that hit me when I watched the video. We should distinguish between content that was published before the suppression order, and content that came after. And the law needs to work out just what ‘publish’ means in an online context. 
The alleged arsonist published his own facebook profile. Voluntarily.  Laurel made the point but no one listened. The law continues to struggle to define ‘publish’ in many areas (eg defamation as well), and in many cases it is different depending on the circumstances. If the SMH had done a profile piece on someone before such an order, would they be expected to go out into the community, find every copy of the paper and pulp it?
The issue is that the information sits there, innocuous enough when the person in question wasn’t before the court, but now thumping slap bang into his/her legal right to a ‘fair trial’. The law seems to consider that its continued existence is re-publication, every day it is there. 
So it tries to re-define who the ‘publisher’ is, so someone can be made to take responsibility for it.  
Now the fair trial issue doesn’t go away. Jurers today are online, and it is an issue to find 12 of them without a pre-conception of the person before the court case. This happens anyway (often courtesy of Derryn Hinch) so the system is in no way perfect. But jurors will draw inferences about a person which will impact how they interpret facts. We all filter information automatically – that’s fine unless the potential for getting it wrong is someone heading off to Long Bay. Lindy Chamberlain’s case is the classic trial by pre-conception example, and the media did a fine job as part of the prosecution team.
The &#039;content after order&#039; thing is a different issue. Once I’m in court (without my trusty Mac), I don’t have the right of reply. I can’t even defend myself. The point here is that unless you are in the court listening to the evidence your opinion on that person’s guilt or innocence is completely irrelevant. I probably sound like I’m stuck on the Chamberlain case, but the media reported less than half of what was presented in court. I do think we need to be careful that ‘trial by media’ doesn’t become ‘trial by new media&#039;.
Some rules are needed, but only after we’ve redefined roles and responsibilities. Old media law doesn’t work in new media, and Galbally et al lose all credibility for not acknowledging this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couple of points that hit me when I watched the video. We should distinguish between content that was published before the suppression order, and content that came after. And the law needs to work out just what ‘publish’ means in an online context.<br />
The alleged arsonist published his own facebook profile. Voluntarily.  Laurel made the point but no one listened. The law continues to struggle to define ‘publish’ in many areas (eg defamation as well), and in many cases it is different depending on the circumstances. If the SMH had done a profile piece on someone before such an order, would they be expected to go out into the community, find every copy of the paper and pulp it?<br />
The issue is that the information sits there, innocuous enough when the person in question wasn’t before the court, but now thumping slap bang into his/her legal right to a ‘fair trial’. The law seems to consider that its continued existence is re-publication, every day it is there.<br />
So it tries to re-define who the ‘publisher’ is, so someone can be made to take responsibility for it.<br />
Now the fair trial issue doesn’t go away. Jurers today are online, and it is an issue to find 12 of them without a pre-conception of the person before the court case. This happens anyway (often courtesy of Derryn Hinch) so the system is in no way perfect. But jurors will draw inferences about a person which will impact how they interpret facts. We all filter information automatically – that’s fine unless the potential for getting it wrong is someone heading off to Long Bay. Lindy Chamberlain’s case is the classic trial by pre-conception example, and the media did a fine job as part of the prosecution team.<br />
The &#8216;content after order&#8217; thing is a different issue. Once I’m in court (without my trusty Mac), I don’t have the right of reply. I can’t even defend myself. The point here is that unless you are in the court listening to the evidence your opinion on that person’s guilt or innocence is completely irrelevant. I probably sound like I’m stuck on the Chamberlain case, but the media reported less than half of what was presented in court. I do think we need to be careful that ‘trial by media’ doesn’t become ‘trial by new media&#8217;.<br />
Some rules are needed, but only after we’ve redefined roles and responsibilities. Old media law doesn’t work in new media, and Galbally et al lose all credibility for not acknowledging this.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Herrington</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Herrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 04:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Mike, thank you for your invitation but I saw it too late and wasn&#039;t in any event free. I hope the podcast went well and please feel free to leave a link.

Derek, the blog entry wasn&#039;t anonymous or uncredited. This particular template doesn&#039;t show the author, you have to go to the RSS feed, which I admit is a weakness we might have to look into.

Derek and John, I think it depends entirely on your definition of journalist whether Melissa Doyle qualifies. We could debate it for some time, throwing dictionaries and common use at each other but it wouldn&#039;t further this particular debate. Is every person who has a journalism degree from Charles Sturt a journalist regardless of what they&#039;ve gone on to do. Perhaps a special episode of &quot;Where Are They Now?&quot; would clear that up.

In terms of &quot;correcting the record&quot;: if you consider hosting &quot;Sunrise&quot; to be journalism then it is quite clear from the original post what she does.

What you both read as thinly-veiled attacks were not veiled attacks in any meaningful sense of the words but clear expressions of a view on Doyle and Galbally&#039;s qualifications for this debate. They were &quot;personal&quot; references only in that any discussion of an individual&#039;s qualifications would have to be personal to that individual. 

Galbally might be second only to his father in eminence as a criminal QC but a search on Google (Bible to the Web 2.0 crowd) showed him primarily as a paid speaker and TV commentator (&quot;Sunrise&quot;, for instance) and entertainer (&quot;The Einstein Factor&quot;). His qualifications in criminal law -- QC -- were mentioned on the show but neither &quot;Sunrise&quot; nor any of the websites I saw offered anything as to his qualifications for a question like this. His comments about what Facebook could and should do suggested an answer.

It wouldn&#039;t be a criminal matter but it would be interesting to hear Galbally&#039;s view on whether suggesting someone wasn&#039;t a journalist could be considered libellous. I know many people who would consider it defamatory to be called a journalist. Ho ho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, thank you for your invitation but I saw it too late and wasn&#8217;t in any event free. I hope the podcast went well and please feel free to leave a link.</p>
<p>Derek, the blog entry wasn&#8217;t anonymous or uncredited. This particular template doesn&#8217;t show the author, you have to go to the RSS feed, which I admit is a weakness we might have to look into.</p>
<p>Derek and John, I think it depends entirely on your definition of journalist whether Melissa Doyle qualifies. We could debate it for some time, throwing dictionaries and common use at each other but it wouldn&#8217;t further this particular debate. Is every person who has a journalism degree from Charles Sturt a journalist regardless of what they&#8217;ve gone on to do. Perhaps a special episode of &#8220;Where Are They Now?&#8221; would clear that up.</p>
<p>In terms of &#8220;correcting the record&#8221;: if you consider hosting &#8220;Sunrise&#8221; to be journalism then it is quite clear from the original post what she does.</p>
<p>What you both read as thinly-veiled attacks were not veiled attacks in any meaningful sense of the words but clear expressions of a view on Doyle and Galbally&#8217;s qualifications for this debate. They were &#8220;personal&#8221; references only in that any discussion of an individual&#8217;s qualifications would have to be personal to that individual. </p>
<p>Galbally might be second only to his father in eminence as a criminal QC but a search on Google (Bible to the Web 2.0 crowd) showed him primarily as a paid speaker and TV commentator (&#8221;Sunrise&#8221;, for instance) and entertainer (&#8221;The Einstein Factor&#8221;). His qualifications in criminal law &#8212; QC &#8212; were mentioned on the show but neither &#8220;Sunrise&#8221; nor any of the websites I saw offered anything as to his qualifications for a question like this. His comments about what Facebook could and should do suggested an answer.</p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be a criminal matter but it would be interesting to hear Galbally&#8217;s view on whether suggesting someone wasn&#8217;t a journalist could be considered libellous. I know many people who would consider it defamatory to be called a journalist. Ho ho.</p>
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		<title>By: Morning television got me thinking about social media, legal reform, vigilante groups and the victorian bushfires &#124; Learning with the Fang</title>
		<link>http://siliconfederation.com/2009/02/bloggers-and-others-getting-the-legal-recognition-they-deserve-over-bushfires/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Morning television got me thinking about social media, legal reform, vigilante groups and the victorian bushfires &#124; Learning with the Fang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://siliconfederation.com/?p=259#comment-35</guid>
		<description>[...] Bloggers (and others) getting the legal recognition they deserve over #bushfires [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bloggers (and others) getting the legal recognition they deserve over #bushfires [...]</p>
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